Global Policy Forum

Nora Wintour, Interviewed by Anne Renaut

ICFTU: Why does the gender pay gap still exist, despite the existence of legislation, and action by unions?

There is legislation in some countries but certainly not all around the world. The pay gap has narrowed over the last twenty years, but it may well be widening in some industrial countries as a result of privatisation, contracting out and informal employment of women. But in the majority of countries, there hasn't been a consistent attempt to address the issue of pay inequality.

What can the unions do, is there a specific strategy?

One of the things for PSI is encouraging unions to give priority to the issue, because in some countries it has not really been a substantive item on the unions agenda. First of all, to develop a clearer understanding of the nature of discrimination, and to identify where it exists, identify where inequalities exist, either through indirect or direct discrimination. Thirdly, promote action through legislation, through collective bargaining and by working with government and employers to address inequalities.

There are still a lot of misunderstandings, for example that equal pay simply means that a man and a woman doing exactly the same job get the same amount of money for it. Many unions and governments around the world are saying "we've already done that twenties years ago, and it's not a problem in our country anymore". But pay inequalities are much more complex and it is important to compare the skills, responsibilities of jobs where the majority of people are women, and the jobs where the majority are men. Why for example should wall cleaners, who are mainly men, earn more than floor cleaners, who are mainly women when they work in the same public hospital in the UK? Why should a veterinary assistant, who is in charge of pest control, earn more than a nursery nurse working in the same hospital in the USA? Why should a car park attendant earn more than a nursing assistant in a hospital in the Philippines? We need to recognise and revalue the work that women do and in particular in health and education services.

There have been major successes in the industrialised world, particularly in Canada, where the public sector unions won a very substantive pay award for women in the low paid sector. In New Zealand, primary teachers achieved parity with secondary school teachers. In Britain, in the school meal service, women, had their pay cut when their jobs were privatised while maintenance staff who were mainly men did not. With the support of their union UNISON, they were able win an equal pay case. Successes like these make women want to join and participate in the union and also strengthens the union as a whole.

Is pay equity a priority in developing countries?

It depends how you are looking at pay equity. If you are looking in the broader context of how to increase women's incomes, you are effectively addressing women's poverty. There is a whole economic cycle. If you are providing quality public services with well paid jobs, that is going to improve the real services and the situation of the women overall. Looking at pay equity within a poverty reduction strategy is the approach we are taking with the developing countries. There are two issues: women who are in the formal economy, whose jobs are undervalued. So there is a case for re-evaluation of the work they are doing. Secondly, many women work in the informal economy, where they are actually providing public services, but these are not recognised as such, or they are undervalued and given a symbolic amount of money. It's the need to re-evaluate women's work, which is in informal economy, providing the equivalent of a public service.

Campaigns on the issue of the right to a minimum wage, and the right to recognition of the work that you are doing, are key issues for women in developing countries.

The PSI's campaigns have successfully raised awareness of the issue within unions. In the Philippines, public sector unions have been working with the Civil Service Commission, resulting in a review of civil service laws and the job classification system in order to detect direct or indirect discrimination.

Is tackling the pay equity issue help to convince people to join unions?

There are two issues. If you start putting women's concerns on the union agenda, it helps unions to identify recruit more women. And if you do achieve substantive results for women, like in New-Zealand and Canada, this strengthens union membership and organisation. In Britain, in the case of the school meals, that had an impact on the number of women wishing to join the union, and their appreciation of unions on the whole changed for the better.

If women are properly recognised and paid adequately, they can join an organisation, or organise themselves. In Colombia, they is now an association of a Community Mothers, and they are campaigning on the issue of the right to recognition of their work by the Ministry of Welfare, and the right to have a minimum wage.

Why is it a priority for PSI?

We are interested in campaigning on different equality issues, and pay equity is a fundamental right.

Secondly, perhaps in the public sector it is easier to detect discrimination because there is a more formal job classification, grading and promotion system than you often find in the private sector. In a sense, it is a leading sector.

If you are looking at pay inequalities within the formal public sector, the range of inequalities is less than within the private sector. But the majority of public sector workers are women, and in general they are low-paid – their jobs need to be re-evaluated. If you are doing an evaluation exercise comparing other jobs from other sectors, inequalities are often greater between private and public. In the informal economy, the inequalities are some of the greatest because these women are not properly recognised as workers nor paid accordingly.

What are you planning in 2003?

For the 8th March, the PSI Women's Committee adopted the theme "Equality Our right!" and at international level we are focusing on the rights of community care workers.

This year, we are planning regional training for own staff and those of other Global Union Federations, in Latin America on pay equity. Next year it will be for English-speaking global union staff. We are planning to continue to build capacity in developing countries, with the focus this year on Namibia, the Philippines, and Brazil. We are also organising a panel, together with the ICFTU, at the ILO, because the ILO's global report on discrimination will be presented this year at the Conference in June. We would like to see much more technical assistance from the ILO on pay equity issues. We would like the ILO to produce guidelines for statistical indicators on pay equity, and to develop a manual on how to carry out gender neutral job evaluations. We have many more plans, including a newsletter on pay equity issues, technical meetings of pay equity experts and on the campaign from, we are proposing a Pay Equity Week in October 2004 and 2005.

Nora Wintour is Public Services International's Equality and Rights Officer

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